01. About Our Guests
Francis MacNutt has lived a very interesting life. He was on his way to a career of healing using medicine and scalpels but ended up with a career of healing through words and Spirit. After being drafted into the Army during World War II, he decided to change his career path and obtained a bachelor’s degree from Harvard and an MFA in speech from Catholic University. He became an ordained Dominican Priest and then a trainer of preachers (and the founder of the Catholic Homiletics Society). But contact with a couple of Protestants who believed God was still healing people caused another unexpected career change. Francis became a leading voice for Charismatic renewal. He later founded the Association of Christian Therapists, whose mission was to bring healing prayer into the medical profession. Francis also married, not an easy thing for a Catholic priest to do, and since then he and Judith MacNutt founded Christian Healing Ministries, a national ministry dedicated to bringing healing prayer back to its rightful place among Christians. His most famous book is Healing, which has become a classic.
Harold G. Koenig, MD, is the Director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at Duke University. He completed his undergraduate education at Stanford University, his medical school training at the University of California at San Francisco. He serves on the faculty at Duke as Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, and Associate Professor of Medicine, and is a Distinguished Adjunct Professor at King Abdulaziz University in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. He has published extensively in the fields of mental health, geriatrics, and religion, with over three hundred scientific peer-reviewed articles, sixty book chapters, and forty books in print or in preparation. His research on religion, health and ethical issues in medicine has been featured on over fifty national and international TV news programs (including The Today Show, ABC’s World News Tonight, and several times on Good Morning America). A few of his latest books include: The Handbook of Religion and Health (Oxford University Press, 2012); his autobiography The Healing Connection: Medicine, Religion and Health (2008); and Religion and Spirituality in Psychiatry (2009, Cambridge University Press). This particular interview is inspired by Spirituality and Health Research: Methods, Measurement, Statistics, and Resources (2011).
02. In Conversation with Francis MacNutt
GWM: Francis, I’m really a fan of the early Church. In fact, I’ve heard it said that: “During the first three centuries Christians were willing to face hungry lions; the world looked on and said, ‘look how they love’; and they toppled a dominant culture without even trying. But now it seems that the majority of Christians are likely to go home from church early to watch the Lions; the world looks on and says, ‘look how they bicker and hate’; and so often seem to be toppled by culture.”
To state it in a less corny manner, it seems that for the first three hundred to four hundred years of Church History, Christians expected healing to take place when they prayed! How is possible that something so central to the Gospel almost died out? What happened between then and now?
FM: When you think about it, this near-destruction of divine healing is an extraordinary mystery, because miraculous healing—with its twin the casting out of evil spirits—lay at the very heart of Jesus Christ’s mission. For the first four hundred years of Church history Christians expected healing to take place when they prayed!
GWM: So what has happened?
FM: As I see it the main reason God heals people is because they are sick. We don’t have a time recorded when Jesus didn’t heal someone who asked.
People asked in faith and God wanted to heal them because they are his children. God doesn’t like to see his children sick. I do think that in the early church, before it was possible to be a nominal Christian, there was more of a sense of living in a world where the Trinity was present and available.
GWM: Would you say just a bit more?
FM: I think that part of the reason we don’t get healed is a simple human reason. It kind of a scary thing, to step out and ask; it involves a risk. John Wimber always said, “Faith is spelled R-I-S-K.” As we all know, if we try to pray for healing, it involves a risk.
GWM: Okay, let me make sure I’m with you. Let’s say that is you pray for one hundred people and fifty get healed and fifty don’t. What would you say are the main reasons for the fifty not getting healed? Are you saying that willingness to step out, to take a risk is the main difference?
FM: I think, well, there is a great deal of mystery connected to this. If anyone says they have a formula for healing, if you do these seven steps you’ll get healed, well, I distrust that because it doesn’t work. There are some things that make it harder for people to get healed, like if they are skeptical or if there is sin in their lives or if they are not loving. If you are not a loving person, not much will happen.
GWM: If you are not a loving person, don’t expect a miracle?
FM: I don’t want to say that. But being a loving person seems to help. To me, the most evident reason for some of those fifty not getting healed, the most important one, is that some things are just more rare to be healed—like a person who has his leg shot off in a war. I went to Lourdes in France and I asked a person there if was impressed with what was happening there and he said: “I see a lot of crutches around here but not any wooden legs.”
Some things are just much more difficult to be healed. It is harder to heal a broken bone than a headache. People that put on the healing services don’t talk about that, but it is obviously harder when someone has a severed spine from a motor cycle accident. That is probably not going to get healed as often as someone who has a bad back.
GWM: What do you make of that, that some things are more difficult to be healed. Shouldn’t it all be the same for God?
FM: I think some things require a “creative” miracle.
GWM: What does that mean, a “creative miracle”? Do you mean regenerative action, like something has to be regenerated?
FM: Yes, and regeneration seems to be a very different thing than something that just needs for a muscle to relax or something to slip back in place.
GWM: I appreciate your candor. Speaking of which, you reference in your book that, mostly, in the established churches, healing has become a lost gift. And not only lost, but ridiculed: Faith healer has become a term of reproach. Why?
FM: Part of it is our own fault. It bothers me how some healing evangelists present things with all the hype and all. I studied theatre for a time and a lot of it is bad acting. Really, it’s terrible. Most people I think do see faith healers as a bad term and assume that it is a money-making scheme. You drum up emotional vigor and then make a financial killing on it.
GWM: You also quote the physician, Larry Dossey, who makes an interesting observation: In a fascinating turn of events, science has pointed a light on the church’s loss of vision: Several medical case studies have shown that prayer helps in the healing process. Larry Dossey says, “Will we reach a point where physicians who ignore prayer will be judged guilty of malpractice.”
FM: I don’t believe that we’ll reach a point where it will be malpractice, actually, but I like what he said. It’s a good way to put it. I mean, what if there was a group of people and someone falls to the ground with a heart attack and you don’t call a doctor? I don’t think anyone would expect the doctor called to that event will have a 100 percent success rate of helping that person survive, but he or she may have a 10 percent success rate. The reality is, though, if you don’t call a doctor at all, that would be cruel, wrong. Well, maybe praying for healing would only have a 5 percent success rate or a 1 percent success rate, but why wouldn’t you do it?
GWM: Perhaps even more odd is the fact that you wouldn’t find many who would accuse a pastor of malpractice if he or she ignored prayer.
FM: Yes, exactly.
GWM: Francis, let me change to topic. From a theological perspective, you state that the basic point is that, through pride, the human race sinned and fell from fellowship with its Creator. God now seems far off; we are outside the Garden, as it were, and can’t get back in. To what extent do you believe it is necessary to be living in ongoing fellowship with God for things like healing to routinely happen?
FM: I’d say it certainly helps, but as Kathryn Kuhlman observed even the scoffers sometimes got healed, too. And some people with absolute belief in God’s healing power came and went in the same condition. It certainly is not totally dependent on the person’s faith or fellowship with God.
GWM: What about the minister, how important to be living in fellowship with the Trinity?
FM: It certainly helps. But there is the mystery part that I just don’t know. Kathryn Kuhlman said that her first question to God, after she dies will be “How come?”
GWM: “How come?”
FM: Yes. “How come” this person had absolute belief, yet nothing happened when she prayed for healing. The word I’d like to use other than faith—although faith is a good word—would be openness. It takes into account wonder and a childlike attitude that anything can happen. That person with that kind of attitude, I find a lot happens with them in general.
GWM: So, being a loving person, willing to take a risk, and being open, with childlike faith are things you would like to see in someone asking for prayer. Francis, what are some things that you do that enhance your sense of living in fellowship with God, loving and more open to God?
FM: Well, obviously, prayer—and the kind that seems to help the most for me is quiet prayer, often alone. My wife and I pray very much in the same way. We sometimes just sit next to each other and pray in silence. Sometimes reading Scripture. My wife is very intuitive and she often gets images during prayer. She often intuits what has been left out when we are praying for healing, and she brings that in and the person often gets healed.
GWM: Do you distinguish between a person being intuitive and someone getting a message or a Word from the Holy Spirit?
FM: Well, there are different personality types and I think that figures in. The person for whom everything is very scientific or very intellectual will communicate with God in a different way.
GWM: Do you think intuitive types have an easier time hearing the Holy Spirit?
FM: I do. I do think intuitive people have an easier time hearing the Holy Spirit, especially inner healing. This seems to be something that women have more than men. Women being mothers have to pick up what the infant is experiencing and know what to do. Intuition goes with a woman’s gifts. It’s not a 100 percent kind of thing, but I think they may have an easier time with some of this.
GWM: How do you tease out—if you are an intuitive person—whether you are hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit or your own intuition, your own thoughts?
FM: That is a natural and normal question as I see it.
GWM: Good, I was afraid you’d be offended by it.
FM: No, I get that question all the time. When I’m praying for inner healing, I try to listen as best I can to the thoughts that come to me, and I found out by experience that those thoughts are not usually emotional, but they are usually pretty accurate. I’ve learned to trust them.
GWM: Would you consider those thoughts independent or from the Holy Spirit?
FM: Well, that’s the question. But just because something comes to me in a natural way, does that mean it was only me? It is really interesting.
GWM: Thank you. And this is slightly off topic, but I know a lot of leaders in the Pentecostal world who have kept it a secret that they never had spoken in tongues. I’ve come to wonder if there is something natural within some people that makes it easier for them to “let go,” so to speak, and speak in tongues.
FM: That may well be, I don’t know. I speak in tongues quite a bit, but I’m not emotional about it. I not only pray in tongues out loud, but I sometimes sing in tongues, and I’m no opera singer. It’s extraordinary what happens. Just last week we had a conference up in Vermont, and while I prefer to minister one-on-one, there were so many, I found myself singing in tongues for the entire group and people started sobbing and all kinds of stuff started happening.
GWM: I’ve known of just one person who when he received the gift of tongues was able to speak fluent Spanish, and he never lost that gift. He literally received a language. I know this person well, and this really happened. Have you ever heard of anyone who as had that experience?
FM: No, that is amazing. I never heard of that. Well, I take that back. I was down in Columbia, South America, and there was a priest who asked me to pray for him. And I did not have the answer to his problem. So I asked him if he would mind if I prayed in tongues (because I did not know what to pray) and he said sure. So I did. I just did it. It wasn’t that emotional. After I prayed he asked me if I knew Greek. I told him no, why do you ask. And he said, well, your prayer was in perfect Greek. And I said, well, “it was all Greek to me.” And then I said, “I don’t know Greek, what did I say? Can you translate it? “And he said, Yes. You said, ‘I am the Lord your God and I know all your problems and I will solve them.’ ”
GWM: So you have had the experience of receiving an actual language, but, it was not something you retained afterwards.
FM: That is right. And you know the next year I was back down there and I asked him if he remembered what I prayed and he repeated it again in Greek. He had memorized what I had said. But I still don’t know Greek.
GWM: Well, as an Orthodox baby that was dropped down a Pentecostal preacher’s chimney, this is very interesting to me, but I had better get us back closer to the topic. You state in the book that the basic practical heresy in present-day Christianity is that we act as if we can cure our own problems and the problems of the world through our own intelligence and effort. Please say more about this . . .
FM: I would put a couple of qualifying words in there, because I do think we need to proceed using our natural intellect. It’s a combination. We need God’s help and our capacities. To me, for example, the basic sin in our culture is not promiscuity, but it is violence. We believe that the solution to a problem is violence, the ability to impose our will on someone else.
GWM: And according to your quote, this is still trying to solve the problem through one’s own effort. So I guess the issue is that those paths don’t involve our own personal cross, giving up the seduction of wanting to be in control, in our own power.
FM: Yes, it is very easy to do that because we think we can see problems. It is usually not either/or but both/and.
GWM: I think that is one of the things I like about your life and writings. You seem to be more of a “both/and” rather than an “either/or” thinker.
Another question. After Jesus’ birth, on the day of His circumcision, “he was named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived” (Luke 2:21, NIVi). The translation of His name (Hebrew: Jeshua) is “God saves” or “God heals,” and this signified His God-given mission in life.