JO: Well, good morning, Dallas.
DW: Good morning, John. What a pleasure to see you.
JO: This is a joy. This is our first session of the morning and we want to put
this discussion of hearing God in a broader context of both what you have written about and of life so I will tell you what question we will not start with. We will not start with, “How did you sleep?”
DW: Thank you.
JO: That’s a singularly uninteresting question. What was the duration of your unconsciousness? Little children never ask that question. They never ask, “How’d your nap go?” But, we tend to ask that especially as we get older and the Bible does have some things to say about sleep.
DW: It does indeed.
JO: Tell us a little bit about if we try to locate ourselves in a broader context, what does sleep, our need for it, our fitfulness in it, have to say about our vulnerability about the broader context in which we live.
DW: Well, sleep is primarily a soul phenomena and the ability to sleep primarily depends upon our capacity to turn loose of the world because that’s what happens when you sleep. [1:30] And if our souls are disturbed, then we have to find a way of dealing with that and you may also, but I find myself often praying for people about their sleep. What I think I’ve learned about it is that you have to find the alarm in their soul and turn it off. Of course, you do that by hearing God while you are hearing them prayerfully identifying; for example, very often, it is helpful for a person to find out when did you first find it difficult to sleep because usually that will give you some clue as to what set the alarm off.
JO: When you say it’s a soul function and it has to do with turning loose—it’s very striking because I will find that when I don’t sleep well, turning loose is what I cannot do. I woke up last night and part of it I am sure is the altitude and part of it is just the stimulation to hear you talk but part of it is the sense that I can’t let go of—I have these problems and these questions that I don’t know the answers to and letting go of it is what I want to do but I cannot do it by trying to let go.
DW: No, well, I would qualify that a little bit. You do learn some things, I think or at least I have learned some things about that. For example, one thing I have learned is to stop trying to go to sleep and stop thinking, “Oh, I need to go to sleep.” Just say, “It’s perfectly alright; here I am and I will use this time to rejoice in the Lord and thank God for good things. If there is some particular need, then I will hold it up before Him. And, so, in other words, it is interesting how alarm piles up on alarm because a person winds up being alarmed that they are not going to sleep. So, you learn a little bit about turning loose, I guess that is in large part that means, “To take ahold of something else—to take ahold of the goodness of God that you‘ve got a bed to sleep in and you are warm.”
JO: Now, that gets into something, “You can’t turn loose without taking hold of something.”
DW: That’s really important.
JO: It starts to get us into that broader context that when we think about hearing God, being guided by God—there is a broader backdrop. The Divine Conspiracy is largely about that broader backdrop that we live in the reality of the Kingdom of God so let’s talk some….sleep is a nice way of getting into it because it shows our smallness and our dependence.
DW: That’s right. It is indeed.
JO: Talk some about where do we live and in what reality do we live.
DW: Yes, Actually, I think, transitioning to that from the idea of sleep, I want to make sure to refer people to Psalms 127 where this is discussed. “It is vain to rise up early, to retire late, to eat the bread of painful labor for he gives his beloved sleep.” Now, my version that I use is always needling things and it can’t bring itself to say, “He gives his beloved sleep.” So, it injects he gives to his beloved even in his sleep, in other words, it’s still working. You never give up. It keeps working. And it’s marvelous to see how that goes because you know, Psalms 127 starts out, “Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain who build it.” Unless the Lord guards the city, the watchmen keep awake in vain. Now, that puts us right where you have referred us—the larger scene. The problem with sleep in our society today is just epidemic. Everyone—even people who proport to be bringing news that we are cronicly short on sleep but they never say, “Why?” It’s because we are not leaving it to the Lord to keep the house, guard the city and now that’s the context of the divine conspiracy because the divine conspiracy is God’s plan to overcome evil with good in human history and he’s going to do it. [7:34] And of course, our immediate skin-to-skin connection is with the Kingdom of God and the glorious message that the Kingdom of the heavens is right here. It’s right here. I don’t know why and well, I’m sure there is an explanation, for so many years, I didn’t understand that and I was trying to preach the gospel and live as a Christian and a minister but I didn’t know the good news.
JO: I think for a lot of us, we think the good news is, it’s the beam me up prayer from Star Trek, “get me out of here up there.”
DW: That’s right.
JO: Instead of, “God make up there come down here.”
DW: Yes, that’s right. And help me to know that you are nearer than my breath. [8:32]
JO: So, describe for us a little bit, what’s that broader kingdom of God that rings where God has his say. What is that like? Is it a scary thing to live in that?
DW: If you think you’ve got to make it work, it is scary and you realize that there are a lot of other people that have ideas about how you should work. That is scary and we—as Paul says in Ephesians about the Gentiles how they were without hope and God in the world and that’s where you live if you don’t know and receive the Kingdom of God. Now, in a wonderful setting like this, the most obvious expression of the Kingdom of God is nature and then when we think about that, we realize that our bodies situate us in nature because our bodies are a part of nature. Then, of course, there is the other side, which isn’t nature but is spirit. In that part of ourselves, we have choice, limited by what we have seen and what we have learned and what God has spoken in our minds and in our hearts and unfortunately by all of the stuff that we have experienced in the world that is not good and so that affects the spiritual side and makes us as Paul says, “dead in trespasses and sin” living out the world’s order under the guidance of an evil presence. We’re basically just like that donkey that you put up at the kid’s party and they come to whack it to pieces. [10:27] [Laughter]
There we are being whacked to pieces by all the stuff around us and if we are not alarmed it’s just because we are perhaps blissfully stupid.
JO: Sounds like an old hymn, doesn’t it? Blissfully stupid…
DW: Yeah, it does. One could write a song about that but that’s where the kingdom of God now begins to emerge and we are given the great possibility of seeking that and Jesus tells us, “Seek above all the Kingdom of God.”
JO: And, I think a lot of people in churches hear that and think, “I ought to be more regular in my quiet time. We’ll think of it in terms of a few isolated activities and if we feel guilty, we may do that for a while but then we get tired and then we quit and then we feel guilty again and there is this cycle around that. What does it mean to seek the Kingdom of God and how do I know if I am finding it?
DW: Wonderful. First thing about seeking is you have to think about what you do if you seek your keys. You seek your keys—you look everywhere for them. You know they may be where you don’t think they are and so, in seeking the Kingdom of God, you have to understand that what you are seeking is what God is doing. That’s the Kingdom of God.
JO: Say that again.
DW: Seeking the Kingdom of God is you are seeking what God is doing and of course, there are a lot of different places you can find that. You can find that if you just read the Ten Commandments or if you read Jesus, what He said and what He did.
JO: Is there any place where God is not doing something?
DW: No, unless you have rejected Him from your own life and then He doesn’t give up on you, you know? But, He does respect your capacity to try to go it on your own.
JO: But even if you turn and looked there and said you were open, He would be at work.
DW: Absolutely and you would find that He has been at work because the way he has set up reality is that’s God; that’s the Kingdom of God. That’s why people who don’t even like to talk about God when they come out of a place like this and look at that mountain up there with the sun and snow on it, they feel something so overwhelming about it and they want to say, “that’s good.” Ya’ know? You can’t imagine someone coming out and look at that and say, “Oh, that’s really bad.” [Laughter]
JO: Somebody screwed up.
DW: It ain’t gonna happen, you know, the presence of God is there in many, many ways but generally, the idea is to look for God’s action everywhere. Now, that verse also what Jesus says there is, ”Seek the kingdom of God and its kind of righteousness.” Those go together because the good …..
JO: And what is, “its kind of righteousness?”
DW: Well, “its kind of righteousness” is basically kindness, tenderness, and love.”
JO: I was very struck earlier when you talked about Jesus was crucified, not so much so that we don’t have to be crucified but so that we can be crucified with Him. And it strikes me that to be relaxed like Jesus lies on the other side of that crucifixion. I want the relaxation but I’m not so sure I want the crucifixion.
DW: Well, I think as you come to understand it, you welcome the crucifixion as the great door of liberation because it takes you off of your kingdom, you see? When the cross is on you, you are free.
JO: You welcome the crucifixion as the great door of liberation.
DW: Absolutely. Absolutely. You see, this isn’t presented well and we think, “Oh, this is just terrible; I’ve got to die.” Well, gee!
JO: Well, it doesn’t sound like good news on the face of it.
DW: No, but by example and precept, we need to help people to understand what good news it is. And that beyond that lies the life we are seeking. Now until you begin to understand that, well, then it’s a terrible thing because you think, “Well this is the only life I’ve got.” Well, that’s the life you have complained so much about. Maybe you should give up on it. Trade it in; upgrade it.
JO: Trade it in; upgrade it.
DW: Get an upgrade.
JO: We are talking about God speaking and how we listen and I’d like to try a little experiment. I’d like to read from one of the Psalms and we are in a setting in the mountains where this one is top of mind and then would you talk a little bit about what God might be saying. Could we listen for His word in scripture and then you might just suggest what He might be saying in our day maybe to somebody who is listening now.
“I lift up my eyes to the hills. Where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, the maker of Heaven and earth. He will not let your foot slip. He who watches over you will not slumber. Indeed, he who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep. The Lord watches over you. The Lord is your shade at your right hand. This sun will not harm you by day nor the moon by night. The Lord will keep you from all harm. He will watch over your life. The Lord will watch over your coming and going both now and forevermore.”
DW: Well, I am listening in the moment and what I am hearing and it comes to me in the way as I explained yesterday in terms of a certain kind of thought and what God says when you are reading to me as I hear that Psalm is there is something greater than the mountain. See, that actually isn’t often read as praising mountains. It’s not praising mountains. It’s saying, look at this mountain and I see how great and wonderful it is but the one who made the mountain is greater than the mountain and He is the one who is in charge of my life. [Tears] He doesn’t doze off and as we read the scripture, that’s the kind of thing that God gives us and we have to be sure and not lose it in a careful exposition of the text. “He that keepeth thee will not slumber nor sleep.” So, I can go to sleep, right? [Tears]
JO: Hearing God is such a whole life experience, should we think of listening to God as a spiritual discipline? Is it a discipline? What is the relationship between that conversational life with God and the disciplines that you write about in The Spirit of the Disciplines? [19:36]
DW: Well, discipline is something you do in order to be able to do what you can’t do on your own effort. So, hearing God, like prayer, of which it should be a part has a disciplinary effect but it is much more than a discipline. See, the importance of hearing God in The Divine Conspiracy is communication between you and what you are doing and the One who is running the show. You have to remember that Kingdoms always work by communication. Fundamentally, we elect people to office so that they can sign their names and their signature on a piece of paper is a communication. So, hearing God, I believe, is an absolutely vital thing in practicing disciplines because it’s the only thing that can give you the impression that you are out here on your own serving and praying and solituding and all of those sorts of things and you are going to make it happen. That’s why I always encourage people when you go into a discipline, go in with your teacher and go in listening because that’s the only way that you can get the best advantage from a discipline and the speaking of God and of course, praying to God, it’s a part of the conversation; it has two sides. It is absolutely crucial, not only in the disciplines, but the really big deal in the Kingdom of God is living your life. That means mostly, unless you are a person who, like perhaps you and me, who spend a lot of our time around the church, it isn’t mostly a churchy kind of business but a business kind of business. [21:36] That’s where we need to be listening and hearing God as that is appropriate to what we are doing in the kingdom of God. That’s how the divine conspiracy works…by the way, that’s another reason why what we call the “still small voice” is so important because the communications are usually private.
JO: So, listening to God is not so much a spiritual discipline as a way in which to do spiritual disciplines.
DW: That’s right. You never want to do disciplines without listening to God.
JO: Yeah, In The Divine Conspiracy, one of the phrases that you write about that is discussed a lot in churches, at least circles that I run in, is the need for a curriculum for Christlikeness and there is a huge hunger for that curriculum. A large interest in spiritual disciplines but I think for many people what happens quickly is we get kind of overwhelmed by the thought that there are all of these disciplines and I ought to be doing them but people are not sure which ones should I do and why. One of the folks here this week, I think a doctor was saying, is there a way to get wisdom and discernment around what discipline do I need to help me with a different area of my life—kind of a diagnosis and then a prescription? So, is there a connection and what would it be between hearing God—like could I say to God, “What do I need to be doing?” And then finding out what practices should I be involved in.
DW: Yes, if you say that to God, he will probably whisper in your ear something that you are not doing so well with and He will suggest to you some disciplines that would help you like, for example, if you have actually trouble in saying what you should be saying, it may be that you will hear a little whisper about silence and solitude.
I’m so glad you asked this because when…we’ve slipped into a period that people when people think that spiritual transformation is about disciplines. It’s NOT about disciplines.
Disciplines are like remedies for specific needs. They are not righteousness. You are not righteous because you do a discipline any more than you are righteous because you take medicine. You take medicine to help with a specific difficulty and where you want to get is where you don’t need any disciplines. It’s living the life that is the deal. So, I’m so glad you asked this because when… I get people who want me to come and talk to them about spiritual disciplines when they don’t need to hear about spiritual disciplines. They need to hear about something else. And then you know, there is a place for disciplines. That’s why I say in The Spirit of the Disciplines, that the spirit of the disciplines is the love of Jesus. That’s the spirit of the disciplines and you do the disciplines because you love Jesus and you want to live with Him in the Kingdom of God.
JO: So, hearing God—listening to God ought to be a part of our practicing of the disciplines but at the same time, in a deep sense, the practice of the disciplines is to enable us to listen to God all the time even when we are not practicing a discipline.
DW: That is absolutely right. That is absolutely right. There are many, many things that have a disciplinary effect that are not primarily disciplines. Now hearing God is not something that you have in your power to do and that’s the fundamental reason why it is not a discipline. A discipline is something in your power that enables you to do what is not so it may well be that you need to experience enough solitude that the rattling goes out of your head before you can hear what God is saying.
JO: So, I can initiate going into solitude; I can’t initiate God talking.
DW: You cannot. That is absolutely right. Let’s write it on the wall because that’s what people so often miss and you’ll see people writing books on spiritual disciplines and they are writing about stuff that they can’t do.
JO: In The Divine Conspiracy, one of the classic expressions about the gospel is that in the presence of the Kingdom, this universe is a perfectly safe place for you to be and I think that strikes many of us so powerfully—A) because it doesn’t look that way but B) because it’s a way to peace in a life that so many of us find to be fearful. This morning when we gathered for prayer, Glandion ended the time saying, “Go into this day without fear.” And I found myself thinking…
DW: God bless you, Glandion.
JO: ……how deeply that that is not new information but how much I needed to hear that. How often in your experience as you listen to God, is it not necessarily directing or guidance but simply reassuring you, “Dallas, my universe is a perfectly safe place for you to be.”
DW: Well, yeah. That’s the main thwart, actually and so for example, in the morning when I arise, one of the things I routinely say is, “God is here.”
JO: That’s the main part because I think very often one of the things I’ll battle in trying to be with God or listen to God is feeling like a lot of where my thoughts go are things that I am doing wrong or are inadequate for….
DW: But you can take steps and when I say, “God is here;” normally, I am told, “Yes, I am.” Then, this issue of stepping out in a world, which has scared most people out of their wits, or you, could be killed in the next 5 minutes; I’m perfectly safe because I’m living in the Kingdom of God beyond crucifixion.
JO: And when that’s the message, then a life of conversation with God becomes something I actually want to have…not that I should have.
DW: I think so because you are not running a show or reality. You are not running a kingdom that isn’t surrendered. See, the key to peace is surrender but you have to know something in order to surrender and you have to have some basic habits and you need wonderful people that you know are speaking for God to say things like, “Go forth today without fear.”