RF: Dallas, in this session, we are working on Hearing God in the context of Life… the life that God gives, the un-created life and our lives as we learn to live them in context with this life. Now, I want you to go way back 40 years ago when you were teaching a little rag tag group of folk and taking us through the book of Acts and you and the Spirit working together came up with this sentence helping us see how Acts fits in the larger picture. The sentence was: The aim of God in history is the creation of an all-inclusive community of loving persons with God Himself at the very center of that community as its prime sustainer and most glorious inhabitant. Remember that?
DW: I remember it. I am glad you wrote it down because I couldn’t say that in one sentence if my life depended on it.
RF: It was a wonderful sentence and it kind of captured that whole sense in the flow into how the book of Acts fits into that but then of course you are not just teaching the book of Acts. You were teaching the whole Bible and the whole of our lives and how it all fits together.
DW: Yes
RF: Then years later, we were working on a Bible project, and you came up or you worked with—I mean we were struggling with this whole concept of the unity of the Bible which, you know, when you—theologians—they, oh man—tie themselves into all kinds of knots about this.
DW: Big seminary topic
RF: I know it and you came up with that phrase, the “with God life” as the unity of the Bible. It was just like “Whoa.” So, now, talk with us a little bit about that in terms of a kind of sweep of holy history. We want to go from Genesis to Revelation in about 4 ½ minutes. [Laughter]
DW: That ought to be possible. The speed of the spirit–
RF: On the “with God life.”
DW: Yes, that’s right. Well, you see from the very beginning that God places human beings in positions of responsibility and we actually have no way of discerning the degree of responsibility and power that Adam and Eve had in the Garden but it was a position of great responsibility because it clearly says, in the first chapter of Genesis, “we had to take charge of the fish and all of the other living things” so you know the green ethic that we talk about today is right there in Genesis 1 and obviously much bigger than we can manage.
RF: Indeed, I would have trouble just with the trout. I wouldn’t know how to handle them.
DW: I must say and there’s a lot of other things and he winds up with creeping things.
RF: Yes, indeed.
DW: Well, I don’t know if I want to—well, maybe if you only had to speak to them, you know, as Agnes Sanford, “create by speaking.” She could tell the bees to go away, and they would go. I like that way of working with them so it must have been a great responsibility.
FR: The mosquito has never really been a…..
DW: I think they got here after the fall……. [Laughter] but in any case, it was a situation where there was great responsibility and great power and interestingly distance and this is crucial to the whole story and when we look at the woeful path of human history, we wonder where is God? And I think the answer is, “Well, the real question is where is man?”[4:20] And, he’s away from God and that is his choice. God hasn’t left him alone but now; you see God showing up in the garden and apparently, they were on very friendly terms at that point but still he would come and visit and then obviously give them some distance.
RF: A little space…….
DW: Right.
FR: That sense of God when man disobeys—God hiding himself from us so that we can hide from God.
DW: Yes, that’s exactly right and that’s crucial to the plan of God in human history to bring that community out of human history, which is almost nothing compared to time. It’s extremely short and who knows what else he has in mind when this great universe that he has created but there’s this project of bringing that community of love indwelled by God out for obviously cosmic and eternal purposes. So, you see God giving distance after the fall. He was still coming around and had this little chat with Cain and then Enoch who walked with God and with Noah who found favor with God and so, now for a while, it’s hard to track that until you come to Abraham and it’s very interesting that Abraham is the first one who is called the “friend of God” and so a different kind of relationship is now developing because instead of just having an individual here or there, we now have a family, a natural unit.
RF: So, we’ve gone from the individual to the family…..
DW: Right, and this is God’s way of being more fully in the human condition without standing over it and so when you look at Abraham’s life, it is very interesting to watch the “ins and the outs” but God has now a covenant and the covenant is with the family and the family grows into a nation.
RF: Right….people.
DW: A nation, with as yet, no place to be and then the events of the exodus and the life of Moses, you see an increasing “with God” presence in the world and God is saying to Abraham, “Through you and through your seed, all the families, all the nations of the earth will be blessed.”
RF: Then the Tabernacle becomes part of that “with god” sensibility.
DW: That’s right; it gives a focal point for human beings to locate God in relationship to themselves. Now, that really is crucial to this whole story because even today, you know, you ask where is God from here?—wherever here is and for living, that’s a crucial question and you see in the spiritual life of people at the present overcoming distance as they experience is really a major project but the way of preparation for dealing with that which we now know through Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God as He brings it to earth in an available form; that’s prepared by centuries through which God is with people who aren’t necessarily doing what He wanted. We go through a period after coming out of the exodus, God is present with the people of Israel through judges that are raised up and the people of Israel finally say; “We don’t want to do this anymore. We need a King and God says, “That’s not a good idea.” And so, He says to the last of the judges, Samuel, now tell them what’s going to happen. This king you want is going to make your life miserable and sure enough. [8:46]
RF: And that statement to Samuel, they are not rejecting you; they are rejecting me.
DW: One of the most profound statements in all of this “with God” story, but He didn’t reject them. He said, “OK, we’ll work this out.” Then He uses the monarchy in many, many ways. One was to establish a different kind of presence in the priests and in the prophets and the prophets remain outsiders, even if they are insiders in some sense, like Isaiah and Jeremiah were, they were outsiders in terms of how they were operating with God.
RF: In relationship to……
DW: In relationship that was oppositional often. That’s why so many of them got killed but that was God’s way of being with them.
RF: I remember you once saying to me because we were kind of out in the sticks, the prophets get killed, but only in Jerusalem.
DW: Right. That’s where you go to get killed…..
RF: So, the movement from individual to family to nation……
DW: ….even identified in terms that God didn’t want the identification but now then, in that period you have the building of the temple, you had the formulation of the law and carrying that forward so that when the nation gets smashed, which it does……
RF: ….so going forward that God is still with them….
DW: That’s the key; that’s the key. They found out that there was a God in Heaven and so the idea of Heaven now begins to intrude, not as something far away, but something—they went to Babylon and they thought God isn’t here and low and behold, He was there. He’s here and you have these wonderful stories. Daniel is so magnificent. That book is so magnificent because it is always bringing in, “There is a God in Heaven.” Oh, you have a dream; we can do something about that. There is a God in Heaven.
RF: And the first Heaven in Hebrew cosmology is the atmosphere.
DW: That’s right; that’s exactly right. It is not far away as I would like to say—“it goes all the way down to your socks.” That’s the first heaven and now that’s what they are learning is the presence of God in the surrounding atmosphere. Then, when you look back, you see how that happened over and over and over in the history of Israel. A wonderful passage in Deuteronomy about the everlasting arms is actually a statement about God’s presence in the atmosphere and so; this is the learning that goes on and of course……..
RF: ……and then there is the restoration period, and God is with them in that. I mean the Nehemiah story and all of that…..
DW: The big deal here is they don’t have a government. God is dealing with them through Cyrus and the Babylonian and then the Medes and the Persians and all of that. That is such an incredible lesson because now they learn we don’t have to have a government to have a God” and……
RF: ….and to live with God?
DW: ……to live with God.
RF: We can live with God without the government.
DW: Right, and incidentally, without a very impressive temple because what they had in the second temple was pretty grimy. It really was but there was a lot of learning there because God was still present. Now, the Shekinah did not return to the second temple as it was in the first temple; that is, the visible presence of God did not return but that was pulling them forward so that by the time John the Baptist shows up on the scene and he says, “Well, you know, rethink what you are doing because the Kingdom of God, the kingdom of the Heavens is right here” and that lays a foundation and he establishes the connection between the old prophetic tradition and the new one with Jesus. [13:38]
RF: And Jesus then becomes the embodiment of a “with God” life.
DW: That’s right. He is the Shekinah in person, and he returns to the temple and of course, there is a future to that, but we can’t go into it.
RF: But now, the life of Jesus is so important because it is helping us catch a picture of this “with God” life.
DW: That’s Emmanuel.
RF: Right.
DW: Emmanuel; He is it and He comes in the form of a person and now a face is put on God, and it is the face of Jesus.
RF: I love the idea of the great doctrine of the New Testament of the Christ likeness of God; that God is like Jesus and so the Gospels, as the cotton patch version says, that Jesus is “tops over all.” It gives us a clarity about the “with God” life but then that moves into the church—the book of Acts…..
DW: Well, that’s the continuing incarnation is the church and the way that forms are he, of course, says, “Now, we are dealing with the Jewish people, and they are the ones that have been prepared for this and they are the ones through whom the Abrahamic blessings come to all of the earth and all of the families of the earth. So, now you get a body of people animated by the presence of the Spirit of God enabling them to live like God. Wonderful phrase in Ephesians 5: “Be ye followers of God as dear children.” Such a wonderful way of—you watch a little child imitating parents—so God has become accessible in Jesus and a body has been formed.
RF: And a body formed that is this community of loving persons with God at the very heart of that community and of course, Acts tells that story.
DW: It does indeed, and you see it up to today, Richard. You find people spread out in history and in time and place. They don’t look like there is a lot of them, but they aren’t actually for “show and tell” and God doesn’t necessarily set them on exhibit, but you have these wonderful people—Mother Theresa, Dorothy Day, Bonheoffer. I love Bonheoffer, especially in my context, because, in the academic world, people just can’t avoid him.
RF: Yes, it’s astonishing.
DW: It’s so funny to watch them kind of twist and turn to get around his devotion to Jesus, which is just the whole deal for him.
RF: When I was a teenager, it was Cost of Discipleship that “kept me” because I couldn’t find it anywhere, but I would—and I have this old, tattered copy—that I would read over and over (and this is as a high school kid) because it gave me a picture of—and then of course, Life Together. Now, in the Bible, but this projects on into the future. [16:51]
DW: That’s right and the blow up is on the Day of Pentecost because that is the point at which everyone comes from all the nations around and they are imprinted and, in many cases, inhabited by this God that came in Jesus through His spirit now and they spread out across the world and take that message out completely non-sectarian, as we might say. It isn’t just religion; it is a life now and it is available to everyone.
RF: Without any cultural pre-suppositions…
DW: Yes, and we are so used to talking about that, but we have no idea what an incredible thing it was to go into a meeting with a group of people and find Greeks here and Jews there and people who are circumcised and people who aren’t and then over here is a Scythian. Now, you know, again, we just don’t pick up on that, but a Scythian is the one when the barbarians saw the Scythians coming, they said, “Now, there are barbarians” because they are a mean bunch of people. And you know, that’s established but it was sort of the bottom of the human barrel, you know? The next level down was animals—but here they are sitting together, loving one another, ministering to one another, loving their people in their community and it all comes out of one thing and that is, Christ is ALL in ALL. [18:29]
RF: IN ALL….and then John, in his revelation, projects that on into eternity.
DW: Right, because, by the time you get to John, they have begun to understand who Jesus was. They couldn’t get their minds around it and that’s why the end of the last chapter of John—he says, “These things are written that you may know that Jesus is the Christ.” And I always like to think of the lone ranger at the end of the old sequences, “Who was that masked man? The looonnnnneee ranger!!!! [Laughter] Now, that’s Jesus!
RF: I’m sorry; that was before my time. [Laughter]
DW: Oh, well. You are a spring chicken. But, by the time you get to the revelation, they have “got it” and when John sees Jesus there, the only appropriate response is to pass out and of course, he could never have come like that and done his work because you can’t make much progress when you are passed out.
RF: And, of course, John was in essence the pastor of these seven little churches and so, that may be the best thing for pastors is to pass out.
DW: They need to be able to experience that at least to put them in the right posture.
RF: One of the things I love in this Dallas is this sense all through the Bible of God’s saying to us, “I am with you.”
DW: I am with you.
RF: I am with you. I am with you. I am with you and then that haunting question, “Are you willing to be with me?”
DW: Right. Yes
RF: And so that is what this life…..
DW: That’s the great choice and of course, that is where, how are we with him? Well, that’s a choice that we make and then we learn through discipleship how to live in that and as we grow, we get a sense of something far beyond anything we know and you know, the wonderful word there in 1 John 3: “Beloved, now we are called the children of God.” And such we are, but we don’t yet know what we shall be. We just know that when we see him, we shall be as He is. And that means, we are getting in a position to reign with Him forever and ever. [21:11]
RF: This week, you’ve been encouraging us about crucifixion with Christ as a good thing to lead us into the greater life of the Kingdom of God in which we hear and obey the formation of the soul—leading us into an “all inclusive” community of loving persons with God at the heart of that community as its prime sustainer and most glorious inhabitant.
DW: Right. Right. And we get the taste of that in daily life and we don’t get the whole deal. We couldn’t stand it if we did but we get to be people living now an eternal kind of life wherever we are because we really are living from the Kingdom of God.
RF: Now, without getting too technical, I want to explore this idea of life. In the New Testament, there are two words for life—bios or physical life and Zoë—this eternal, uncreated life, right? [Right] So, that’s why it is possible to be physically alive (bios) and spiritually dead (Zoë). Now, can you just unpack this idea of the Zoë life of God that comes into the human being from the outside that—and this is where I really hope you can help us—that has a principle of its own—this life—and what does that mean and how does that kind of work out for us?
DW: Now, that’s a great question and let me start like this. Life is a process or activity that is defined by how it is directed—what is it directed towards? Life is always proposive and there is a movement that is natural to the kind of life that we are talking about—whether it’s a plant or a snail or a giraffe or a human being that has a direction and is a part of that direction. It has various parts to it—like a snail doesn’t spend any time studying algebra. Human beings do. That’s a different part of life.
RF: Some human beings do. [Laughter]
DW: Right. It’s a human capacity whereas the snail is sort of left out from that and that’s characteristic of kinds of life. Now, the other thing that life does is it eats. Plants eat dirt and they absorb light, and they do photosynthesis with that, and we take in and if we are not provided what would nourish us for the kind of life that we have, then we die. Right? Now, the human being is directed toward the governance of their world under God. That is a spiritual life and that’s how we are created. We lost that because being a spiritual life, it was grounded in choice and the ability to choose. The fundamental role of the human spirit is to simply trust God and when you pull that away, you lose the nutrients that are necessary for human beings to flourish. Just like if you take sunlight away from a cabbage plant—not much going to come of that. So, the human being has in it a kind of life that derives from its capacity to draw on God as the principle that sustains it, gives its direction power, and keeps the direction right. When we withdraw from God, we turn back on ourselves, and we try to make God out of ourselves and the pickings there are pretty slim—quite frankly and so human life does not go well. So, you get the story in Romans 1 about the degeneration that comes as the human being turns back on its own body and tries to draw from that the nutrition that will enable it to flourish. This is so important for us to understand what goes on in our world today. So then, now, the person who is a disciple of Jesus has re-established the connection with God through Christ and that’s where, of course, “God with us” has the initiative on God’s side—but He’s willing and He makes Himself available and the new birth which, of course is actually the birth from above—it’s not just a new one—it’s located in a certain source and that above is where the Kingdom of God is.
RF: So, from the outside comes in life re-establishing the connection……
DW: The word and the Spirit come in and the response is to receive it. I would like to think of these wonderful re-fueling planes that they trail a hose out back of them and the plane comes up and—that’s us. We are taking in fuel from God. [27:40]
RF: Now, this life that comes in then is indestructible [indestructible] and that’s one of the reasons that the resurrection of Jesus meant so much [absolutely] is that the disciples saw [right] that this life [CLAP] can’t be destroyed. It keeps on.
DW: Absolutely right. In effect, Jesus on the cross is saying, “Hit me with your best shot.” And I’ll live beyond it. [28:06]
RF: And I’ll live beyond it so the disciples knew then that they were possessors or participators maybe in a life that will go on forever and that will accomplish its purposes.
DW: That’s right and its two contemporary manifestations are always in transformation of character and power to accomplish what is good. Now, the power to accomplish what is good—that was our original charter, but we can’t do it if we don’t have the life that is life indeed. Now, when we have that, then we grow in our capacity to do that as our character becomes more capable of bearing the power.
RF: And that’s part of the reasons for spiritual disciplines to help train in righteousness……
DW: That’s right. It is very important here to understand that that’s a continuation of God’s provision for us to find ways to deal with Him at an appropriate distance because, see the disciplines are not themselves holy works. They are avenues into the presence of God, and you like to use that word, “means of grace” and that’s what it is. A discipline—you go into solitude or silence—well, that’s something you can do but it’s not for its own sake; it’s to be receptive. [29:30]
RF: Exactly. I mean I like, you know, Paul’s words to Timothy—exercise yourself unto godliness. And that word exercis has the Greek gymnasium in its background so the idea of training like the athletes would train and somebody was asking the question of—what discipline is appropriate? Well, it’s like an athlete that is—if you are a gymnast and you are good at the parallel bars, but you are not good at the floor exercise—you’ve got to get to the floor exercise.
DW: Yes, and another New Testament word is paideia, which also has a classic background to it. Paideia refers more to the holistic development of the whole person. But of course, you can’t do that unless you are developing the parts and so you need both demnaso and paidea. God gives us teachings about how to enter into that—go to school to Jesus, be His student…..
RF: And that’s where our word piety comes from—the whole life being formed in its way.
DW: That’s exactly right. Now then, that whole life requires that we be with one another and so that keeps us—you know, you probably hear the same thing I do—some quarters when you bring up spiritual disciplines, people will say privatization. Well, of course, they don’t know what they are talking about because what the spiritual disciplines do is they teach you how to love with power and that is communal from the start to the end. So, it isn’t privatization at all. You turn this person loose out here—they are operating in a bank or in a taco stand or whatever, and that’s where the power of character and the presence of God comes through.
RF: Now I want to turn our thinking a little bit more specifically to hearing God and particularly, your teaching here in this book on the way we come to understand the voice of God and the quality of the voice of God, the spirit of the voice of God and the content and that sense of the spirit—you know, God draws and encourages. Satan pushes and condemns, and we can learn the difference….
DW: Yes indeed.
RF: So, then we learn the voice of God and as you put it in the still, small voice, and you make a statement in here about the greater the expression, the more immature, that is—as you develop in maturity, you don’t need –it’s like in my mind, I think of a horse that has learned a neck rein—it doesn’t take much at all to turn. I mean …..
DW: Sometimes just leaning …..
RF: …. Is enough. If people have visions and dreams and that’s wonderful but it isn’t necessarily a compliment.
DW: No, it isn’t and it’s a grace in this respect that is another aspect of God’s fine tuning on this issue of distance because the dramatic cases address the distance that is there in the sense of grabbing someone who might never recognize the still small voice if it came. But also, the meaning is not so clear that the person is unable to respond to it. And I think this is so important to understand and it does stand out in that passage in Numbers where Aaron and Miriam get in trouble with God because of their jealously of Moses and I think that’s one of the most important passages in coming to understand the voice because God just explains his policy and it starts out by saying something very important that Moses is the most humble man on earth. Wow!
RF: That’s that character formation that opens the way.
DW: Absolutely right. That’s also such an illustration of the thing that turns up both in Peter and James in the New Testament where it says, “God resists the proud.” Well, here’s old Miriam and Aaron and they are getting resistant but he gives grace to the humble and he says, “Now, my servant Moses is not like other people, other prophets; the ordinary prophet will have a dream or vision of something of that sort but I just talk to Moses and he talks to me and that’s the ideal condition but God doesn’t leave us alone if we can’t do that.
RF: He saves and that was the thing—the teaching of Elijah. After the incredible experience with the prophets of Baal which had plenty of fireworks and then of course he skedaddles and that whole story wanting to die under the broom tree and getting over to the cave…..
DW: Yes, a lot of self-deception because if he wanted to die, he could have just stayed there and let Jezebel do it.
RF: But the passage that I find so interesting when he gets to the cave and I think often—you know, sometimes when we go through it that we want to say, “Move over, Elijah, let me come and pout in the cave with you.” But then God doesn’t leave him there but takes him out of the cave [That’s right] and God says, “Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord for the Lord is about to pass by.” Now, that passage has Sinai in its background. When God passed by …..
DW: ……and scared him to death.
RF: …. And had plenty of fireworks. So, Elijah was looking for the fireworks.
DW: He was good at fireworks [Laughter] but not much more to tell you the truth. I mean, he is such a fascinating thing to study, and I think the story there about how when that “little voice” comes, he wraps his face in his mantle. I think that’s Elijah realizing what he didn’t have. And, or course, this was the end of his ministry and from there he went to ordain Elisha, and I mean there were some other things that happened after that but basically that was the end of the fireworks. [It was over.]
It is very instructive to us again in this whole issue of “God with us” and the speaking is absolutely essential to that and of course, it comes in many ways—the Bible is a constant—speaking to us where we can go to seek the Word of God. It’s kind of like the Word at a permanent address whereas Israel was a permanent address for God’s Kingdom at one time. The Bible as a form of God’s presence in the world—it’s speaking and we need to go beyond the sacred pages the Psalms says, “Beyond the sacred page, we seek thee, Lord; our Spirit pants for thee the Living God” and that’s the point where the speaking goes on.
RF: But even though that was the end of Elijah’s earthly ministry, it wasn’t the end.
DW: Yes!
RF: Because he ends up on another mountain….
DW: Yes, he does.
RF: Jesus and the disciples ……
DW: And he gets a ride in a fiery chariot….his exit.
RF: But then, even beyond that, what we call amount of transfiguration, he ends up Elijah and Moses and Jesus so then we go to Jesus as the ultimate example of God moving with us.
DW: Yes, that’s right. I am so touched about what they were talking about. [38:21] They were talking about his death, and I think that they were encouraging him, and you know, they never found Moses’ body and I have a feeling that it wasn’t left on earth and there are some indications of course about the angel contending with Satan to get his body. If Satan had gotten his body, I am sure there would still be a statue of Moses somewhere for worshipping. It’s so important to get out of that. It’s the same way with Elijah…..
RF: Exactly.
DW: Yes, and Jesus Himself. Imagine what it would be like if someone had the body of Jesus.
RF: Or even the grave clothes or something.
DW: Oh yes, oh yes. But these are important things about how God is with us to draw us into the spiritual world fully and to understand its reality and of course, to know that the physical world doesn’t disappear. It’s still there but now we have moved into a mode of “life with God” where we are not under the limitations that are imposed by matter and Jesus, you will remember said, “Well, if I don’t go away, the Spirit can’t come.”
RF: So, we can move into that life. Well, Moses and Elijah encouraging Jesus about His death. This week, you’ve been encouraging us about crucifixion with Christ [yes] as a good thing [yes] to lead us into [that’s right] the greater life [yes] of the Kingdom of God [right] in which we hear and obey the formation of the soul [right] leading us into an all-inclusive community of loving persons [yes] with God at the heart of that community as its prime sustainer [right] and most glorious inhabitant.
DW: And we get the tastes of that in daily life and we don’t get the whole deal—we couldn’t stand it if we did but we get to be people living now an eternal kind of life wherever we are because we are really living from the Kingdom of God.
RF: And so that death is merely a minor transition from this life to greater life.
DW: Jesus said, “You wouldn’t experience it.” A very interesting thing and that’s a big part of the New Testament message and you remember Paul even says in 2 Timothy 1:10, “Jesus abolished death and brought life and immortality to the life through the Gospel.” That’s Kingdom living and that’s eternal living and I think we should really emphasis that, Richard because so many of our folks are still deeply troubled about dying and death and we want to say now, it will make a difference to the people who are left here but you are not going to be here, you know?
RF: You will go on……
DW: You are out of here and your experience as you know it now, especially as you know it living in the Kingdom of God will be continuous through the event which from this side looks like dying but your experience will go on. I don’t think Lazarus, as he was at the banquet, you know, in Abraham’s bosom was thinking about death. Right? I actually think a good way of saying it is, probably you won’t even know you’ve died until later.
RF: Because you’ve stepped beyond time.
DW: That’s right
RF: Now, that’s eternal life; however, we’ve run out of time, and we have to stop.
DW: Eternity keeps on.
RF: That’s right.
DW: Thank you. Thank you.