Mark Nelson: First of all, some “retroactive congratulations” to Dr. Mark McMinn, winner of the 2018 Dallas Willard Research Center Book Award for The Science of Virtue: Why Positive Psychology Matters to the Church (Brazos Press, 2017).
Mark McMinn: Thank you, Dr. Nelson. This award remains a highlight of my academic career. One of the special aspects of receiving it was returning to Westmont College, where I studied during the 1977-78 academic year. That year was an incredible experience, but my heart was drawn to a young woman named Lisa, who was attending nursing school in Portland. After a year at Westmont, I transferred to a college in Portland to be near her—a decision I have never regretted. Lisa Graham McMinn and I have now been married for 46 years, but I will always cherish that formative year at Westmont.
MN: A little background for our readers: what is your current position, and how long have you been there?
MM: I am Professor Emeritus at George Fox University, which is a fancy way of saying I am old and retired from academia. I spent 36 years teaching psychology—both at Wheaton College and George Fox. Lisa was also an academic, serving as a sociology professor at Trinity International University, Wheaton College, and finally George Fox before retiring a few years before I did.
Though we left our formal academic roles, retirement didn’t really stick. Lisa returned to seminary and became a certified spiritual director, while I started a small telehealth psychology practice. We also manage a small farm—Lisa tends to a herd of Nigerian Dwarf dairy goats and makes goat milk soap, while I focus on growing berries and fruit trees.
One of the greatest blessings of our lives is that our three grown daughters, their partners, and our six grandchildren all live within an hour’s drive. Words can’t fully capture the joy that brings us.
MN: For people who don’t already know your work, could you summarize your award-winning book in 1-3 sentences?
MM: Psychology often focuses on what goes wrong with people, but a growing branch—positive psychology—examines what goes right. The Science of Virtue explores this emerging field while making the case that the church needs positive psychology, and positive psychology needs the church. Christianity provides a rich moral and historical context for the virtues studied in positive psychology—such as gratitude, wisdom, humility, and forgiveness.
MN: That book was very warmly received. Were you at all surprised by that?
MM: Yes, I was pleasantly surprised, though it served as a reminder that “copies sold” is not the only measure of a book’s success. Publishers often say that virtue doesn’t sell—which I find both curious and disappointing—and the sales numbers for The Science of Virtue reflect that. Yet, the book’s reception in academic and faith communities, as well as the awards it received, were deeply gratifying.
I wrote it during the final year of a grant from the John Templeton Foundation (JTF), and I remain grateful for JTF’s ongoing efforts to foster meaningful dialogue between faith and science.
MN: In your book, you brought traditional virtues such as humility, forgiveness, gratitude, grace, hope, and wisdom back into psychology. Did you meet with any resistance or skepticism from psychologists about that? (Or maybe from theologians?!)
MM: Probably—but if so, no one expressed it directly to me. Perhaps they were too polite to say so.
Positive psychology gained widespread acceptance around the turn of the century and is now a respected field worldwide. What I have noticed, however, is that many try to divorce these virtues—such as humility and forgiveness—from their religious heritage. I believe something is lost when we do that. Faith provides the deeper substance that positive psychology seeks to study. Some prefer to keep faith and psychology separate, but theologians and psychologists alike have been gracious and respectful of my efforts to integrate them.
MN: Have you noticed any changes or developments in this field since you wrote that book? If so, could you tell us about them in a sentence or two? If not, what do you regard as some important but unfinished business in your field?
MM: One chapter of the book explores grace, a topic not commonly addressed in positive psychology, but one that has gained traction in recent years. Lisa and I are currently writing a book on the lived experience of grace. We’re analyzing 153 hour-long interviews with Christians of various denominations, exploring how they encounter grace in everyday life. This work has led to some surprising insights, which we look forward to sharing in the book.
MN: A quick look at your CV tells us that you have remained busy. In 2020, you and Megan Anna Neff published the bookEmbodying Integration: A Fresh Look at Christianity in the Therapy Room (IVP 2020). Do you see any continuity between this and The Science of Virtue, or was that work in a whole new direction?
MM: Oh, there’s much to say about this book! Megan Anna is my daughter. She earned a seminary degree from Princeton Theological Seminary before pursuing a doctorate in psychology. During her doctoral training, we had rich conversations about integrating faith and psychology—conversations that ultimately shaped Embodying Integration.
And yes, this book connects directly with The Science of Virtue. My career has been dedicated to fostering dialogue between faith and psychology, and both books contribute to that lifelong pursuit.
MN: Your award was from the Dallas Willard Research Center, which exists partly to stimulate and recognize scholarly work that addresses the sorts of things that Dallas Willard taught about, such as moral & spiritual formation. Just out curiosity: had you heard of Dallas Willard before you received the award? If so, how? (If not, you can say so. No one will get huffy about it.)
MM: Yes. I was the first new faculty member hired when Wheaton College launched its doctoral program in clinical psychology in 1993. To better understand what our students were learning, I sat in on the integration courses. The professor in one of those courses—a spiritual formation class—assigned “The Spirit of the Disciplines” by Dallas Willard.
I’ve called that class life-changing, and Willard’s book played a significant role in that transformation. At the time, many of us had done extensive work integrating psychology and theology, but very little incorporating spiritual formation. That realization led me to write Psychology, Theology, and Spirituality in Christian Counseling—a book that, remarkably, is still in print 30 years later, with over 100,000 copies sold and translations in multiple languages.
A decade after taking that spiritual formation class, Dallas agreed to speak to one of my classes at Wheaton. When a student asked about Dr. Willard’s relationship with Scripture, I noticed tears in his eyes as he described how precious the Bible was to him, how many Bibles he had worn out over the years. That moment left a lasting impression on me and remains one of my cherished memories.
Dallas Willard’s wisdom has shaped my thinking in profound ways.
MN: Have you encountered or interacted with his ideas since then? If so, do you see any connection between his ideas and your work?
MM: Absolutely. In fact, Lisa and I recently published An Invitation to Slow (2024), which calls readers to resist the loud, judgmental tendencies of our culture and embrace a different way of being. Each chapter offers a spiritual invitation—such as Slow to Judge: An Invitation to Humility and Slow to Anger: An Invitation to Empathy. This aligns with Dallas Willard’s approach, offering people a spiritual identity and moral foundation to shape how they live in the world.
MN: Is there a piece of music (or visual art or a poem or a novel) that is making a difference for you these days? Would you mind sharing it with us?
MM: Several months ago, a spiritual companion introduced me to Danielle Rose’s song, “Shelter Your Name.” It was performed by the Notre Dame Folk Choir in 2021, just as the world was heavy with pandemic grief. I listen to it often, always with tears.
I also appreciate The Porter’s Gate, a worship collective that brings together artists, musicians, scholars, and pastors to create thoughtful praise music. Their name comes from Chapter 66 of The Rule of St. Benedict, which instructs monastics to station a porter near the gate to offer a warm welcome to strangers and a blessing from God. That’s the kind of presence I strive to embody as a psychotherapist.
MN: Likewise, is there a passage of scripture that is much on your heart these days?
MM: Lately, I’ve been reflecting on John 9, where Jesus heals a blind man by making mud with his saliva. Sometimes, transformation requires enduring some mud. We live in a post-pandemic world clouded by division and isolation, but I long for the day when we, too, might say: “So I went and washed, and now I can see!”
MN: Finally, thank you for your work and for taking the time to talk with us today!
MM: Thanks for the opportunity, Mark.